<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: Heaven (the book) isn’t what I thought</title>
	<atom:link href="http://s-hq.com/christianity/heaven-the-book-isn%e2%80%99t-what-i-thought/feed" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://s-hq.com/christianity/heaven-the-book-isn%e2%80%99t-what-i-thought</link>
	<description>An eclectic blend of life, Christianity, technology, and outdoor activities.</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Tue, 07 Feb 2012 21:33:14 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1</generator>
	<item>
		<title>By: john m.</title>
		<link>http://s-hq.com/christianity/heaven-the-book-isn%e2%80%99t-what-i-thought/comment-page-1#comment-24</link>
		<dc:creator>john m.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Oct 2007 22:38:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://s-hq.com/?p=136#comment-24</guid>
		<description>I must offer &quot;the opposing view&quot; to what you and Roger and Ray offer. I have yet to see anything in scripture that suggests humans will ever transcend time. What I mean by transcend is that time ceases to exist. Note that even making the statement &quot;time ceases to exist&quot; is itself fundamentally anchored to time.

I want to suggest a few thoughts. Suppose that at some point in the future time ends and there is only something we call &quot;now.&quot; This means that our knowledge of God, or of each other, of God&#039;s works etc neither increases nor decreases. There is no more revelation, no learning, no change, no communication, etc. So, in eternity we either know all about God (which is impossible) or we no longer learn anything about him. I&#039;m concerned about this and how it works. What sets our eternal level/limit of understanding and knowledge? There can be no worship as this involves action and since there is no time there can be no action. There is no singing, no speaking, no talking, everything just is. This doesn&#039;t sound like the heaven talked about in the scriptures.

Isaiah 46:10 and 48:3-7 present God as the only one able to tell the future. Certainly there are other spiritual beings (holy angels and fallen angels) who exist now in the spiritual world. None of them are able to foretell the future so they certainly cannot exist in a timeless reality. On the other hand, they interact with the world and they act in time. They also seek to know the mysteries found within Christ and his church as time unfolds. This suggests that there will come a time when they learn more. This is fundamentally a temporal concept. Why do we think that things will be fundamentally different for us when we die and go to Heaven? The book of Revelation speaks of judgments which assume a beginning and an ending. The martyrs call out to God day and night asking for God to avenge them. All of these descriptions assume a temporal existence.

Any argument that can prove that our existence is &quot;without time&quot; in Heaven can also be used to prove that our existence is without space or other limits. Jesus said that he was going to prepare a place for us. This suggests some limit. If time can be argued away as a limit why not all limits? We could argue no limit to time, space, our knowledge, our power and so on. If we can argue time away then we can argue any limit away and suddenly we become God.

I disagree with what Steadman says (even though I generally like most of what Steadman says) when he says that &quot;time is time and eternity is eternity and never the twain shall meet.&quot; I think they meet perfectly in God. It is right to think of God as being both in time and transcending time. He created it and fully controls it. He acts within it and above it. We, on the other hand, are never described in the scripture as transcending time. Rather, we experience time through eternity. Johnathan Edwards in his essay &quot;The end for which God created the world&quot; speaks about eternity in heaven as an ever increasing delight in God. This suggests progression through an inexhaustible enjoyment of God, experiencing him more and more and growing in knowledge and understanding without limit and end. This is a very temporal experience.

One theologian gave an anecdote that I liked. He said that &quot;Time is God&#039;s way of doling out eternity little by little.&quot;

Just a few thoughts -- John M.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I must offer &#8220;the opposing view&#8221; to what you and Roger and Ray offer. I have yet to see anything in scripture that suggests humans will ever transcend time. What I mean by transcend is that time ceases to exist. Note that even making the statement &#8220;time ceases to exist&#8221; is itself fundamentally anchored to time.</p>
<p>I want to suggest a few thoughts. Suppose that at some point in the future time ends and there is only something we call &#8220;now.&#8221; This means that our knowledge of God, or of each other, of God&#8217;s works etc neither increases nor decreases. There is no more revelation, no learning, no change, no communication, etc. So, in eternity we either know all about God (which is impossible) or we no longer learn anything about him. I&#8217;m concerned about this and how it works. What sets our eternal level/limit of understanding and knowledge? There can be no worship as this involves action and since there is no time there can be no action. There is no singing, no speaking, no talking, everything just is. This doesn&#8217;t sound like the heaven talked about in the scriptures.</p>
<p>Isaiah 46:10 and 48:3-7 present God as the only one able to tell the future. Certainly there are other spiritual beings (holy angels and fallen angels) who exist now in the spiritual world. None of them are able to foretell the future so they certainly cannot exist in a timeless reality. On the other hand, they interact with the world and they act in time. They also seek to know the mysteries found within Christ and his church as time unfolds. This suggests that there will come a time when they learn more. This is fundamentally a temporal concept. Why do we think that things will be fundamentally different for us when we die and go to Heaven? The book of Revelation speaks of judgments which assume a beginning and an ending. The martyrs call out to God day and night asking for God to avenge them. All of these descriptions assume a temporal existence.</p>
<p>Any argument that can prove that our existence is &#8220;without time&#8221; in Heaven can also be used to prove that our existence is without space or other limits. Jesus said that he was going to prepare a place for us. This suggests some limit. If time can be argued away as a limit why not all limits? We could argue no limit to time, space, our knowledge, our power and so on. If we can argue time away then we can argue any limit away and suddenly we become God.</p>
<p>I disagree with what Steadman says (even though I generally like most of what Steadman says) when he says that &#8220;time is time and eternity is eternity and never the twain shall meet.&#8221; I think they meet perfectly in God. It is right to think of God as being both in time and transcending time. He created it and fully controls it. He acts within it and above it. We, on the other hand, are never described in the scripture as transcending time. Rather, we experience time through eternity. Johnathan Edwards in his essay &#8220;The end for which God created the world&#8221; speaks about eternity in heaven as an ever increasing delight in God. This suggests progression through an inexhaustible enjoyment of God, experiencing him more and more and growing in knowledge and understanding without limit and end. This is a very temporal experience.</p>
<p>One theologian gave an anecdote that I liked. He said that &#8220;Time is God&#8217;s way of doling out eternity little by little.&#8221;</p>
<p>Just a few thoughts &#8212; John M.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>
<!-- This Quick Cache file was built for (  s-hq.com/christianity/heaven-the-book-isn%e2%80%99t-what-i-thought/feed ) in 0.22582 seconds, on Feb 9th, 2012 at 10:44 am UTC. -->
<!-- This Quick Cache file will automatically expire ( and be re-built automatically ) on Feb 9th, 2012 at 11:44 am UTC -->
